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Category: Travel + Leisure Company (TNL)
Date: 1 March 2021 Stock price of Travel & Leisure (TNL): $60.14 We take a more detailed look at Travel + Leisure (TNL) the world’s leading membership and leisure travel company. They provide vacation experiences and travel inspiration to millions of owners and members every year through their products and services. They own the world’s largest timeshare ownership business with 247 resorts and 867,000 owners
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We strive to be the top one or two producer in the ready-mixed concrete markets we serve and operate in some of the fastest growing and most attractive metropolitan markets in the United States, including New York City, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Dallas-Fort Worth and the San Francisco Bay Area. These markets represent five of the top 12 metropolitan statistical areas"
More About Travel + Leisure Co (TNL)
On January 5, 2021, Wyndham Destinations, Inc. acquired the Travel + Leisure brand from Meredith Corporation (“Meredith”) and subsequently changed its name to Travel + Leisure Co. on February 17, 2021. Travel + Leisure Co. is the world’s leading membership and leisure travel company. We provide vacation experiences and travel inspiration to millions of owners and members every year through our products and services. We have two financial reporting segments: Vacation Ownership, which includes the world’s largest vacation ownership business with 247 vacation club resort locations across the globe; and Travel and Membership, the world’s foremost membership travel business which includes the largest vacation exchange company, industry-leading travel technology, and subscription travel brands. At Travel + Leisure Co., our global team of associates brings hospitality to millions, turning vacation inspiration into exceptional travel experiences. We put the world on vacation.
Operations Of Travel + Lesiure
We have three branded business lines, Wyndham Destinations, Panorama, and Travel + Leisure Group. These business lines operate independently and each umbrella business line includes multiple brands. Wyndham Destinations is included in the Vacation Ownership (formerly Wyndham Vacation Clubs) reporting segment; Panorama and Travel + Leisure Group are included in the Travel and Membership (formerly Vacation Exchange or Panorama) reporting segment.
Our business segments generate a diversified revenue stream and significant cash flow. Prior to the impacts of COVID-19, we generated 46% of our revenues from the sale of VOIs, and 40% of our revenues from our Fee-for-Service businesses. This split was 23% and 53% in 2020 as a result of COVID-19. We derive our fee revenues principally from
(i) providing property management services to vacation ownership resorts,
(ii) providing vacation exchange services, and (iii) providing services under our Fee-for-Service model in our timeshare business.
Our businesses have both domestic and international operations. During 2020, we derived 88% of our revenues in the U.S. and 12% internationally
- Vacation Ownership (comprised of Wyndham Destinations), is the world’s largest timeshare ownership business with 247 resorts and 867,000 owners. We develop, market, and sell vacation ownership interests (“VOIs”) to individual consumers, provide consumer financing in connection with the sale of VOIs, and provide property management services at resorts.
- Travel and Membership (comprised of Panorama and Travel + Leisure Group), operates a variety of travel businesses, including three vacation exchange brands, a home exchange network, travel technology platforms, travel memberships, and direct-to-consumer rentals. Our RCI vacation exchange business is the world’s largest and has 3.7 million members and relationships with 4,200 vacation ownership resorts located in approximately 110 countries and territories. These businesses are primarily Fee-for-Service, selling third-party inventory that provides stable revenue streams and produces strong cash flow.
Our business segments generate a diversified revenue stream and significant cash flow. Prior to the impacts of COVID-19, we generated 46% of our revenues from the sale of VOIs, and 40% of our revenues from our Fee-for-Service businesses. This split was 23% and 53% in 2020 as a result of COVID-19. We derive our fee revenues principally from
(i) providing property management services to vacation ownership resorts,
(ii) providing vacation exchange services, and (iii) providing services under our Fee-for-Service model in our timeshare business.
Our businesses have both domestic and international operations. During 2020, we derived 88% of our revenues in the U.S. and 12% internationally
Business Strategy Of Travel + Leisure
Our Travel + Leisure strategic pillars serve to clarify our top priorities in order to enhance shareholder value and return capital to our shareholders through dividends and share repurchases. The four strategic pillars of 1. Customer Obsession, 2. Best-inClass Sales & Marketing, 3. Leading Brands & Product Innovation, and 4. Operating Excellence, affirm our mindset that customers must dominate our focus, while also reflecting our relentless drive for superior sales and marketing, exceptional brands and products, as well as our commitment to operate all areas of the business with excellence. Our execution of this strategy is firmly anchored by our culture - the foundation comprised of the shared values, competencies, and spirit of our global team. Aligned with our mission to put the world on vacation, our values are the HEART of Travel + Leisure: Hospitality, Engagement, Accountability, Respect, and Teamwork. We recognize and appreciate our ability to positively impact the lives of our customers, associates, and the communities in which we operate. Travel + Leisure thrives upon the commitment of our 15,500 associates, and we foster a culture that unlocks our full potential for success as a company, and as individual and team contributors.
1. Customer Obsession
Far beyond a hospitality initiative, Customer Obsession is our global credo that the Travel + Leisure team puts affiliates, owners, members, and guests first in all areas of our business. Three straightforward guidelines support this focus and underscore our commitment to excellence in customer service:
2. Best-in-Class Sales & Marketing
We focus on fueling the continued growth of Travel + Leisure. We will remain globally relevant to travelers by staying committed to innovation and continuing to build and strengthen relationships with our customers. Four core elements define our goals and align with our pledge to treat all customers with respect and integrity:
3. Leading Brands & Product Innovation
We create a simple yet powerful narrative of who we are and what we sell supported by the launch of Travel + Leisure, and the ongoing rebranding of Wyndham Destinations’ brands including Club Wyndham and WorldMark by Wyndham, and the refreshed branding of RCI, 7Across, and Love Home Swap. Three core elements define this strategy:
4. Operating Excellence
Operating Excellence is the business engine that enables our delivery of great vacations and optimal performance through aligned operations. Two core elements drive this strategy:
1. Customer Obsession
Far beyond a hospitality initiative, Customer Obsession is our global credo that the Travel + Leisure team puts affiliates, owners, members, and guests first in all areas of our business. Three straightforward guidelines support this focus and underscore our commitment to excellence in customer service:
- Make It Easy – we eliminate pain points across the customer lifecycle. Aligned with our goal to put our owners, members, and guests on vacation, we are enhancing technology to make it easier to search and book reservations. The alignment of our team, systems, and operations enables us to deliver better customer experiences.
- Know Our Customers – we use rich customer data to customize engagement. Our investment in integrated Customer Relationship Management (“CRM”) throughout the customer lifecycle enables us to understand customer preferences, personalize engagement, and optimize sales, marketing, service and vacation experiences.
- Customer, Customer, Customer – we consider the customer experience in every decision. We rely upon customer metrics from Net Promoter Score and Owner Engagement data across the business, and leverage surveys and customer feedback to remain responsive and relevant.
2. Best-in-Class Sales & Marketing
We focus on fueling the continued growth of Travel + Leisure. We will remain globally relevant to travelers by staying committed to innovation and continuing to build and strengthen relationships with our customers. Four core elements define our goals and align with our pledge to treat all customers with respect and integrity:
- Blue Thread – we drive revenue through our connection to Wyndham Hotels & Resorts, Inc. (“Wyndham Hotels”) and Wyndham Rewards loyalty program customers. The demographics of this significant consumer group are strongly aligned to our owner demographics, enabling us to grow call transfer, cross sell, and onsite marketing to fill our sales pipeline and deliver new vacation experiences to Wyndham loyalists.
- Digital & Customer Relationship Marketing – we bring timeshare to the next generation. We will optimize technology to be relevant and compelling to meet our customers’ expectations, driving retention through Search Engine Marketing and social channels.
- Partnership Pipeline – we leverage the expertise of strategic partners to accelerate our growth and deliver enhanced benefits to our owners and members. We will strengthen and extend existing relationships, while developing new partners to reach untapped segments.
- Sales Experience – we invest in the fundamentals as we re-imagine sales centers and processes with the customer experience in mind. These bold transformations modernize and revitalize the customer experience and drive engagement through a single view of the customer.
3. Leading Brands & Product Innovation
We create a simple yet powerful narrative of who we are and what we sell supported by the launch of Travel + Leisure, and the ongoing rebranding of Wyndham Destinations’ brands including Club Wyndham and WorldMark by Wyndham, and the refreshed branding of RCI, 7Across, and Love Home Swap. Three core elements define this strategy:
- Brand Transformation – we strive to create brand fanatics through strong positioning and differentiation. With a clear value proposition for each of our brands, we remain relevant, and grow affinity and awareness among our diverse owners, members, and prospects.
- Network Expansion – we grow our portfolio of resorts and brands, to meet the needs of our customers. We prioritize geographies that will create new leads around the world, and add depth in existing markets.
- Product Innovation – we are investing in brands and technology that will help us launch new products and services which target different demographics from our traditional timeshare demographic. We are launching products and services which appeal to younger demographics seeking increased flexibility with their travel options. Examples include, shorter-term products as well as travel clubs.
- Panorama Growth – we leverage our strengths to expand the business into the broader travel market aligned with our strategy to become a leading travel membership provider. We are enhancing the membership experience, and developing new offerings with wide appeal to broaden our demographic reach and grow market share.
4. Operating Excellence
Operating Excellence is the business engine that enables our delivery of great vacations and optimal performance through aligned operations. Two core elements drive this strategy:
- Resort Operating Excellence – we deliver great vacation experiences to our owners, members, and guests. The strategic deployment of capital and reserves to maintain top quality resorts, combined with our optimal use of inventory, drives this cycle of excellence.
- Prioritization – we operate with discipline as an integrated company. Our alignment around prioritized work and our management of general, administrative, and overhead expenses relative to revenue growth fuels efficiency and effectiveness. In summary, we believe that the successful execution of our business strategy will allow us to increase cash flows and profitability, creating more value for our shareholders
Sales And Marketing Of Travel + Leisure
We employ a variety of marketing channels to encourage prospective owners of VOIs to tour our properties and attend sales presentations at our resort-based sales centers as well as off-site sales offices. Our resort-based sales centers also enable us to actively solicit upgrade sales to existing owners of VOIs while they vacation at our resorts. We operate a tele-sales program designed to market upgrade sales to existing owners of our products. Sales of VOIs relating to upgrades represented 73% and 63% of our net VOI sales during 2020 and 2019. We use a variety of marketing programs to attract prospective owners, including sponsored contests that offer vacation packages or gifts, targeted mailings, outbound and inbound telemarketing efforts, and in association with Wyndham Hotels brands, other co-branded marketing programs and events.
We also partner with Wyndham Hotels by utilizing the Wyndham Rewards loyalty program to offer Wyndham Rewards points as an incentive to prospective VOI purchasers, and by providing additional redemption options to Wyndham Rewards members. We co-sponsor sweepstakes, giveaways and promotional programs with professional teams at major sporting events, and with other third parties at high-traffic consumer events. Where permissible under state law, we offer cash awards or other incentives to existing owners for referrals of new owners. New owner acquisition is an important strategy for us as this will continue to maintain our pool of “lifetime” buyers of vacation ownership and thus enable us to solicit upgrade sales in the future. We added 12,000 and 36,000 new owners during 2020 and 2019. New owner acquisition in 2020 was negatively impacted by COVID-19 related closures of our resorts and sales centers.
Our marketing and sales activities are often facilitated through marketing alliances with other travel, hospitality, entertainment, gaming, and retail companies that provide access to such companies’ customers through a variety of co-branded marketing offers. Our resort-based sales centers, which are located in popular travel destinations throughout the U.S., generate substantial tour flow by enabling us to market to tourists already visiting these destinations. Our marketing agents, who often operate on the premises of the hospitality, entertainment, gaming, and retail companies with which we have alliances, solicit tourists with offers relating to entertainment activities and other incentives in exchange for the tourists visiting the local resorts and attending sales presentations. We offer a variety of entry-level programs and products as part of our sales strategy. For example, we have a program that allows prospective owners a one-time allotment of points or credits with no further obligations, which we refer to as our sampler program, and a biennial product that provides for vacations every other year. As part of our sales strategies, we rely on our points/credits-based programs, which provide prospective owners with the flexibility to buy relatively small packages of points or credits which can then be upgraded at a later date. To facilitate upgrade sales among existing owners, we market opportunities for owners to purchase additional points or credits through periodic marketing campaigns and promotions while those owners vacation at our properties.
We also partner with Wyndham Hotels by utilizing the Wyndham Rewards loyalty program to offer Wyndham Rewards points as an incentive to prospective VOI purchasers, and by providing additional redemption options to Wyndham Rewards members. We co-sponsor sweepstakes, giveaways and promotional programs with professional teams at major sporting events, and with other third parties at high-traffic consumer events. Where permissible under state law, we offer cash awards or other incentives to existing owners for referrals of new owners. New owner acquisition is an important strategy for us as this will continue to maintain our pool of “lifetime” buyers of vacation ownership and thus enable us to solicit upgrade sales in the future. We added 12,000 and 36,000 new owners during 2020 and 2019. New owner acquisition in 2020 was negatively impacted by COVID-19 related closures of our resorts and sales centers.
Our marketing and sales activities are often facilitated through marketing alliances with other travel, hospitality, entertainment, gaming, and retail companies that provide access to such companies’ customers through a variety of co-branded marketing offers. Our resort-based sales centers, which are located in popular travel destinations throughout the U.S., generate substantial tour flow by enabling us to market to tourists already visiting these destinations. Our marketing agents, who often operate on the premises of the hospitality, entertainment, gaming, and retail companies with which we have alliances, solicit tourists with offers relating to entertainment activities and other incentives in exchange for the tourists visiting the local resorts and attending sales presentations. We offer a variety of entry-level programs and products as part of our sales strategy. For example, we have a program that allows prospective owners a one-time allotment of points or credits with no further obligations, which we refer to as our sampler program, and a biennial product that provides for vacations every other year. As part of our sales strategies, we rely on our points/credits-based programs, which provide prospective owners with the flexibility to buy relatively small packages of points or credits which can then be upgraded at a later date. To facilitate upgrade sales among existing owners, we market opportunities for owners to purchase additional points or credits through periodic marketing campaigns and promotions while those owners vacation at our properties.
Inventory Sourcing Of Travel + Leisure
We sell inventory sourced primarily through five channels:
Self-developed inventory.
Under the traditional timeshare industry development model, we develop inventory specifically for our timeshare sales. The process often begins with the purchase of land which we then develop. Depending on the size and complexity of the project, this process can take up to several years, but usually takes less.
Just-in-Time inventory.
Our Just-in-Time inventory acquisition model enables us to acquire and own completed units close to the timing of their sale or to acquire completed inventory from a third-party partner based upon a predetermined purchase schedule. This model significantly reduces the period between the deployment of capital to acquire inventory and the subsequent return on investment which occurs at the time of its sale to a timeshare purchaser.
Fee-for-Service.
In 2010, we introduced the first of our Fee-for-Service models. This timeshare sourcing model was designed to capitalize upon the large quantities of newly developed, nearly completed, or recently finished condominium or hotel inventory in the real estate market without assuming the risk that accompanies property acquisition or new construction. This business model offers turn-key solutions for developers or banks in possession of newly developed inventory, which we sell for a fee through our extensive sales and marketing channels. Fee-for-Service enables us to expand our resort portfolio with little or no capital deployment, while providing additional channels for new owner acquisition and growth for our Fee-for Service property management business.
Consumer loan defaults.
As discussed in the “Purchaser Financing” section, we offer financing to purchasers of VOIs. In the event of a default, we are able to recover the inventory and resell it at full current value. We are responsible for the payment of maintenance fees to the property owners’ associations until the product is sold. As of December 31, 2020, Inventory on the Consolidated Balance Sheets included estimated inventory recoveries on loan defaults of $246 million.
Inventory reclaimed from owners’ associations or owners.
We have entered into agreements with a majority of the property associations representing our developments where we may acquire properties related to owners who have defaulted on their maintenance fees, provided there is no outstanding debt on such properties. In addition, we frequently work with owners to acquire their properties, provided they have no outstanding debt on such properties, prior to those owners defaulting on their maintenance fees. This provides the owner with a graceful exit from a property that is no longer utilized due to lifestyle changes.
- self-developed inventory;
- Just-in-Time inventory;
- Fee-for-Service;
- consumer loan defaults; and
- inventory reclaimed from owners’ associations or owners.
Self-developed inventory.
Under the traditional timeshare industry development model, we develop inventory specifically for our timeshare sales. The process often begins with the purchase of land which we then develop. Depending on the size and complexity of the project, this process can take up to several years, but usually takes less.
Just-in-Time inventory.
Our Just-in-Time inventory acquisition model enables us to acquire and own completed units close to the timing of their sale or to acquire completed inventory from a third-party partner based upon a predetermined purchase schedule. This model significantly reduces the period between the deployment of capital to acquire inventory and the subsequent return on investment which occurs at the time of its sale to a timeshare purchaser.
Fee-for-Service.
In 2010, we introduced the first of our Fee-for-Service models. This timeshare sourcing model was designed to capitalize upon the large quantities of newly developed, nearly completed, or recently finished condominium or hotel inventory in the real estate market without assuming the risk that accompanies property acquisition or new construction. This business model offers turn-key solutions for developers or banks in possession of newly developed inventory, which we sell for a fee through our extensive sales and marketing channels. Fee-for-Service enables us to expand our resort portfolio with little or no capital deployment, while providing additional channels for new owner acquisition and growth for our Fee-for Service property management business.
Consumer loan defaults.
As discussed in the “Purchaser Financing” section, we offer financing to purchasers of VOIs. In the event of a default, we are able to recover the inventory and resell it at full current value. We are responsible for the payment of maintenance fees to the property owners’ associations until the product is sold. As of December 31, 2020, Inventory on the Consolidated Balance Sheets included estimated inventory recoveries on loan defaults of $246 million.
Inventory reclaimed from owners’ associations or owners.
We have entered into agreements with a majority of the property associations representing our developments where we may acquire properties related to owners who have defaulted on their maintenance fees, provided there is no outstanding debt on such properties. In addition, we frequently work with owners to acquire their properties, provided they have no outstanding debt on such properties, prior to those owners defaulting on their maintenance fees. This provides the owner with a graceful exit from a property that is no longer utilized due to lifestyle changes.
Seasonality Of Travel + Leisure Earnings
We rely, in part, upon tour flow to generate sales of VOIs; consequently, sales volume tends to increase in the spring and summer months as a result of greater tour flow from spring and summer travelers. Therefore, revenue from sales of VOIs are generally higher in the third quarter than in other quarters.
Competition Of Travel + Leisure
Our vacation ownership business competes with other timeshare developers for sales of VOIs based principally on location, quality of accommodations, price, service levels and amenities, financing terms, quality of service, terms of property use, reservation systems, flexibility for members to exchange into time at other timeshare properties or other travel rewards, including access to hotel loyalty programs, as well as brand name recognition and reputation. We also compete for property acquisitions and partnerships with entities that have similar investment objectives as we do.
There is also significant competition for talent at all levels within the industry, in particular for sales and management. Competitors range from small, independent vacation ownership companies, to large branded hospitality companies, all operating vacation ownership businesses involved in the development, finance, and operation of timeshare properties. Our primary competitors in the timeshare space include Marriott Vacations Worldwide, Hilton Grand Vacations, Disney Vacation Club, Holiday Inn Club Vacations, Bluegreen Vacations, and Diamond Resorts International. In addition, our timeshare business competes with other entities engaged in the leisure and vacation industry, including resorts, hotels, cruises and other accommodation alternatives, such as condominium and single-family home rentals.
We also compete with home and apartment sharing services (such as Airbnb and VRBO) that operate websites that market privately owned residential properties that can be rented on a nightly, weekly or monthly basis. In certain markets, we compete with established independent timeshare operators, and it is possible that other potential competitors may develop properties near our current resort locations. In addition, we face competition from other timeshare management companies in the management of resorts on behalf of owners on the basis of quality, cost, types of services offered and relationship. The timeshare industry has experienced significant consolidation over the last fifteen years, which may increase competition. Additionally, competition in the vacation ownership industry may increase as private competitors become publicly traded companies or existing publicly traded competitors spin-off their vacation ownership operations, increasing the number of competitors in a highly fragmented industry. For example, in September 2018, Marriott Vacations Worldwide acquired Interval Leisure Group, Inc., which operates the Interval International exchange program. Prior to that acquisition, Interval Leisure Group, Inc. had acquired Hyatt Residence Club in October 2014 and the timeshare operations of Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, Inc. in May 2016 (which includes the use of Westin and Sheraton brands for timeshare purposes), known as Vistana Signature Experiences, Inc. Diamond Resorts International, Inc. completed the acquisition of the timeshare business of Gold Key Resorts in October 2015 and the timeshare business of Intrawest Resort Club Group in January 2016.
Most recently, in January 2021, Marriott Vacations Worldwide announced an agreement to acquire Welk Resorts. In January 2017, Hilton Worldwide Holdings Inc. completed the spin-off of its vacation ownership operations and Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. is now a separate publicly traded company. In November 2017, Bluegreen Vacations Corporation completed an initial public offering that resulted in approximately 10% of its stock being held by the public. Competitors that are publicly traded companies may benefit from a lower cost of, and greater access to, capital, as well as more focused management attention. Consolidation may create competitors that enjoy significant advantages resulting from, among other things, a lower cost of, and greater access to, capital and enhanced operating efficiencies. We generally do not face competition in our consumer financing business to finance sales of our VOIs. We do face competition from financial institutions providing other forms of consumer credit, which may lead to full or partial prepayment of our timeshare financing receivables.
There is also significant competition for talent at all levels within the industry, in particular for sales and management. Competitors range from small, independent vacation ownership companies, to large branded hospitality companies, all operating vacation ownership businesses involved in the development, finance, and operation of timeshare properties. Our primary competitors in the timeshare space include Marriott Vacations Worldwide, Hilton Grand Vacations, Disney Vacation Club, Holiday Inn Club Vacations, Bluegreen Vacations, and Diamond Resorts International. In addition, our timeshare business competes with other entities engaged in the leisure and vacation industry, including resorts, hotels, cruises and other accommodation alternatives, such as condominium and single-family home rentals.
We also compete with home and apartment sharing services (such as Airbnb and VRBO) that operate websites that market privately owned residential properties that can be rented on a nightly, weekly or monthly basis. In certain markets, we compete with established independent timeshare operators, and it is possible that other potential competitors may develop properties near our current resort locations. In addition, we face competition from other timeshare management companies in the management of resorts on behalf of owners on the basis of quality, cost, types of services offered and relationship. The timeshare industry has experienced significant consolidation over the last fifteen years, which may increase competition. Additionally, competition in the vacation ownership industry may increase as private competitors become publicly traded companies or existing publicly traded competitors spin-off their vacation ownership operations, increasing the number of competitors in a highly fragmented industry. For example, in September 2018, Marriott Vacations Worldwide acquired Interval Leisure Group, Inc., which operates the Interval International exchange program. Prior to that acquisition, Interval Leisure Group, Inc. had acquired Hyatt Residence Club in October 2014 and the timeshare operations of Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide, Inc. in May 2016 (which includes the use of Westin and Sheraton brands for timeshare purposes), known as Vistana Signature Experiences, Inc. Diamond Resorts International, Inc. completed the acquisition of the timeshare business of Gold Key Resorts in October 2015 and the timeshare business of Intrawest Resort Club Group in January 2016.
Most recently, in January 2021, Marriott Vacations Worldwide announced an agreement to acquire Welk Resorts. In January 2017, Hilton Worldwide Holdings Inc. completed the spin-off of its vacation ownership operations and Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. is now a separate publicly traded company. In November 2017, Bluegreen Vacations Corporation completed an initial public offering that resulted in approximately 10% of its stock being held by the public. Competitors that are publicly traded companies may benefit from a lower cost of, and greater access to, capital, as well as more focused management attention. Consolidation may create competitors that enjoy significant advantages resulting from, among other things, a lower cost of, and greater access to, capital and enhanced operating efficiencies. We generally do not face competition in our consumer financing business to finance sales of our VOIs. We do face competition from financial institutions providing other forms of consumer credit, which may lead to full or partial prepayment of our timeshare financing receivables.
Employees Of Travel + Leisure
As of December 31, 2020, our global team was comprised of more than 15,500 associates, more than 3,000 of whom work outside the U.S. 12,600 associates support Vacation Ownership, 2,400 associates support Travel and Membership, and 500 associates comprise our corporate group. Nearly one percent of our associates are subject to collective bargaining agreements governing their employment with our company.
Travel + Leisure (TNL) stock price chart over the last 5 years
The image below shows the stock price chart of Travel + Leisure (TNL) over the last 5 years. And it's not been a good time for Travel + Leisure stockholders. Over the last 5 years the stock of Travel + Leisure decreased by-19.5%. Pretty sure no investor would be happy with those kind of returns.
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